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Forum:Can luffy go up against an admiral or smoker now.
Well,lets put Admirals aside and take a look at Logia Type Users. I think that currently,he can beat them all, since he can now use all the 3 types of haki decently after training for like 2 years. Haki can nulify the effects of devil fruits regardless to what type they are. Luffy is one fellow who's strength evolves rapidly by getting more and more powerful. So far we haven't seen any of the Admirals nor the Vice Admirals fighting without their Devil Fruit Abilities and if even they try to use techniques like Soru,Tekkai,Tekkai Gou,Shigan or something Luffy is already experienced in taking enemies who uses it,eventually beating them. So yes,Luffy can take the Admirals as well as Smoker. Would be better if u used a blog 19:36, March 11, 2012 (UTC) We don't know, because he hasn't fought them yet. That's about all you can say. 19:37, March 11, 2012 (UTC) An Admiral and Smoker are not the same, I think he can tie/barely beat Smoker but would lose against an Admiral. 19:58, March 11, 2012 (UTC) I think that we can only wait and see how he does against a Logia user, as he is soon to fight Ceasar Clown. Only time can tell if he is able to beat an Admiral or Smoker, although I think that he will be able to kick Smoker's ass, considering that he has grown a lot more powerful over the timeskip. 10:30, May 18, 2012(GMT) You're forgetting that Oda likes to let his characters exceed expectations. I think that Luffy's on par with a young Gold Rodger now that he has decent Haki control. He still has a lot of growing left to do, but I'm betting that Smoker doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of beating him. Regular admirals and weak shichibuka may give him a challenge later in the series, but only the toughest guys in the storyline are capable of beating him now. Well you have to remember that Smoker also as a recurring opponent is getting stronger, he is supposedly the Garp counter part. And what do you mean by, "Regular admirals and weak shichibuka"? 23:10, March 11, 2012 (UTC) If "weak shichibukai" can give him a problem, then who were Moriah and Crocodile? Super-weak Shichibukai? 01:26, March 12, 2012 (UTC) I think it really depends on who specifically he's up against. I don't think you can simply say "he can beat an admiral" because even within the Admirals, there's such a huge difference in power. I personally think that Luffy could probably just barely beat Aokoji now (or in the near future), and he could fight but not beat Kizaru, and has no chance of beating Akainu. One thing I've realized is that Luffy has yet to have one of those fights that last many days that other people in the series have had. I would guess that when it comes time to fight one of these super-powerful characters from the first half, he'll have one. With Smoker, the situation in my mind is more interesting. Smoker is one of few enemy characters that's shown to be improving throughout the series. Most enemies we see always seem to be content with their current capabilities and always trust that they can beat whoever comes along. Most recurring enemies don't seem to be doing this. Early on Smoker was far more powerful than Luffy. But now that Luffy can hit him, I think that Luffy could beat him in a tough fight. However; because both characters are always improving, I think as the series goes on, they will fight many times, and it will always be a tough fight. There will never really be a time where Luffy is on a whole different level than Smoker. (except for the end of the series, maybe) And you can never say that Luffy is "on par with a young Gold Roger" because Luffy is probably always on par with a young Roger. If the two characters are really supposed to be as similiar as Oda leads us to believe, then Roger probably nearly died just as many times as Luffy has (and will continue to do) throughout his journey. Roger wasn't always the most powerful pirate on the sea, it's just because Roger was successful in his journey that he became known as that. [[User:Example|'JustSomeGuy...']] 02:37, March 13, 2012 (UTC) (my old sig. seems to have disapeared, so this is a new one) I mostly agree except for the huge power gap between Admirals thingy, Akainu is not much stronger than Aokiji, in fact I think if you put against a random opponent they are about equal. Which was proven when their fight lasted ten days with both sides suffering serious injuries. In my opinion, Akainu only managed to win because his devil fruit has an edge over Aokiji's. Similarly Kizaru in my scaling is about equal to the other two and as of now they are still way ahead of Luffy in power. If Luffy beats one of them now it would be solely owing to plot armor. 03:27, March 12, 2012 (UTC) Throughout the whole series, Luffy has been compared to Rodger. He has the same carefree attitude. He visits the same places. He runs into people associated with Rodger. He has the "D". Powerful people like Shanks, Silvers, and Jinbe can sense his potential and help him, even at great personal cost. Therefore, he is like a "young Rodger". I stand by that. I also re-iterate that he has more growing to do or the series would be boring. That being said, logia types, as Pekoms has demonstrated, are not used to fighting people with a lot of haki. I think Luffy can mop the floor with Smoker and weak shichibukai that he has already beaten like Moriah, Crocodile, and (a guess here) Buggy. He's not on par with Kizaru, Aokiji, or Akainu yet. Admirals of lesser rank would likely give him a good workout though. ***Admirals of lesser rank? What do you mean? The Vice Admirals / Rear Admirals? If that is the case, I agree, Luffy can easily beat a normal Rear Admiral and probably beat almost all Vice Admirals. Also incase of the known current and former Shichibukai, he has already beated Moriah and Crocodile and I think if he fight them again he can easily beat Moriah now (considering Moraih did not improve, well might be dead too). As for Crocodile, it would not be easy but it would not be as tough as it was before as he can now hurt Crocodile even without moisting him and with much greater destructive power. I think he can also beat Jinbe and Hancock in a battle (although he would probably never have to). As for Kuma, it's a tough one cause if Kuma can use his devil fruit properly, it is uncertain as to who will win but if he is indeed totally mindless then it won't take more than a few seconds for Luffy to make short work of him now (cause Luffy did take out a Pacifista with only one hit). I think Luffy can beat Law too, although we did not see much about what Law can actually do, but, before the time skip he did struggle agains a Pacifista even after his entire crew and the Kid pirates helping them. Sure he must have improved but unlike him Luffy spent all the time only in training and must have gained a higher level of strength, I think Law would not pose more a problem for him (Luffy) in one on one battle than Jinbe would, which means that Luffy would have some difficulty would not need push himself too far to win the bout. However in case of Doflamingo or Mihawk, I don't think Luffy can match them yet, he might be able to put up a fight but those two will still beat him without much trouble. Same goes for Teach, (as he is a former Shichibukai I am taking him into account too) in fact, in my opinion, if the two fights right now, I think teach won't even have to try to mop the floor with Luffy. Now don't go putting Smoker in the same level as Caribou, Pekoms only said that Logia who believe they are invincible have short life span. However Smoker is not so naive, he is a Vice Admiral now, that means he must also have learnt haki. Besides his base endurance is pretty high too, he got kicked by Hancock and did not show any damage (note Hancock broke Pacifista armor which is harder than steel with her kicks). Also as Smoker is a recurring enemy who is somewhat of a reminiscent of Garp to Roger, he won't go down easily. I think if the two fights now, it would end up in a tie. As for the old Admiral trio, they can still beat Luffy hands down, just as easily Teach can (Akainu can probably do it even faster). Luffy still has a long way to go before he can beat them (however he might be able to do it sooner because of plot armor, like the time when he deafed Crocodile even being nowhere near the former Shichibukai's level). Well that is what my thoughs are. 00:32, March 13, 2012 (UTC) With the Shichibukai, I agree that he could still beat Moria and Crocodile. (he'd have much easier time with Moria than Crodile though, provided Moria didn't have another Oars on hand) And I agree that he probably couldn't beat Doflamingo. (that random dismemberment that he can do is some scary stuff.) And he probably couldn't beat Mihawk, though I doubt that they would ever fight again, as that's Zoro's fight. Jinbe and Hancock, he's probably never going to fight, so I'm not gonna waste my time thinking about that. Unless Buggy has somehow become MUCH stronger after the timeskip, that's an easy win for Luffy. The only ones I can't figure out are Kuma and Law. While Luffy can break a Pacifista pretty easily, I'm sure Kuma is made of stronger stuff than a regular Pacifista. And I'm confident that after the heavy damage he recieved protecting the Sunny, that Vegapunk would take the time to upgrade Kuma further. That being said, I don't think Kuma's all that tough when it comes down to his physical capabilites. What makes him a wildcard is his devil fruit. If Kuma gets one hit in with his paw, Luffy is on his way back to the East Blue before he can do anything. And his ability to transfer pain would cause serious damage too. Especially if Kuma can transfer the pain that Luffy inflicts on Kuma back to Luffy. As far as Law, I just don't know enough his abilities (even pre-timeskip) to say either way. I also can't even figure out who Luffy's even going to fight in the Punk Hazard arc. The possible main villans could be Smoker, Law, or that Logia user who is the boss. I could see Luffy fighting at most two of those people, but I doubt he would end up fighting all 3. As far as my thing on the power gap in the old Admirals, I still think Aokoji is still the weakest. It all comes down to their devil fruits, and not so much Haki and other stuff. When it comes down to it, Ice is solid. And solid things are way easier for Luffy (or anyone else) to stop than anything else. Luffy can break solid, and Aokoji's body isn't inherently harmful to anyone who touches it for a punch, unlike the magma body of Akainu. Akainu's body is only semi-solid, and it's going to hurt to hit him, even with Haki. And there's plenty of things he do with his powers besides regular combat that could give him a serious advanage over anyone, like melting himself into the ground or stuff like that. Kizaru is interesting in that his body isn't harmful or anything, it's just that if you to hit him normally, there'd be nothing to hit. (It would appear from what we've seen of him that his light is only harmful when focused down into lasers or something) And while with Haki, Luffy could hit him, Kizaru's real power comes from the fact that he's fast. Probably the fastest character in the series, and unless Oda decides Luffy can break the speed of light (something that science currently believes is pretty much impossible), Luffy would be in serious trouble against him. I can't even begin to imagine the amount of stuff Kizaru could do outside of attacking to get the advanage over anyone, let alone a concevable way to defeat him. If Akainu is stronger than Kizaru, the only things that would make him stronger would be having way more powerful Haki, and just his general ruthlessness. That and the fact that it makes more sense for Luffy to fight Akainu after Kizaru story-wise. I think the reason the Aokoji vs. Akainu fight lasted so long is because their DF powers dulled each other's attacks. I don't think Akainu had a perfect advantage over Aokoji. Yes, the magma would melt the ice, but the ice would also cool the magma, taking the bite out of it, turning it into just rock. If Aokoji were going up against Ace's regular fire, he'd be in serious trouble, because his ice couldn't stop the fire. But magma is a very different beast than fire. Ice vs magma is very tough fight because the overall damage that both could do would be signifcantly lower than against anyone else. In the end, the magma would probably win out, (just like Akainu did) but it would be a long, tough fight. If we're going to talk about people like Vice-Admirals too, then I would like to propose the idea of Luffy vs Magellan again. I think most people would agree with me when I say that Luffy did not "defeat Magellan" so much as "survive Magellan" when they last fought. Because of this, I suspect that they will fight again in the future, though I can't forsee a reason for Luffy to go back to Impel Down. Perhaps Magellan is a regular Marine officer now? Anyway, besides the plot issues with them fighting again, I can't figure out who would win. Keep in mind that Magellan's DF is Paramicia, not Logia, so Luffy can't just use his Haki to hurt him, he still has to punch through Magellan's poison armor to hit him. And yes, Luffy has gained an immunity to (at least) some poisons, but I doubt that would be effective against the cocktail of poisons that Magellan can control. I personally can't figure out who would win this, so I'm curious to hear what you guys have to say.[[User:Example|'JustSomeGuy...']] 02:37, March 13, 2012 (UTC) I have to agree with the comments today. Luffy needs another level before he is on a par with the big guys in the series. That's why I have been hoping that the three eye'd girl would have a devil fruit power to control time in other forums. If Luffy saves her from Big Mom, that ability would provide a way for Luffy, Zoro, etc. to match Kizaru in speed. Nahhh. You see how much Whitebeard destroyed Akainu in Marineford (at least, before Blackbeard killed him)? Luffy still hasn't risen to Yonkou level and probably won't for awhile. 00:55, March 14, 2012 (UTC) But yeah, this should be a blog post. 00:56, March 14, 2012 (UTC) It would become a power blog, and therefore a flame war. It might even get deleted. 02:38, March 14, 2012 (UTC) In response to the AWC above, well first with the Kuma issue, if we don't speculate that Kuma would be upgraded and look at him in the old light, he is made of the same material as the other Pacifista because when the pre-time-skip Strawhat crew fought a Pacifista they felt both of them to be equally strong (remember the fight at Sabaody). The only difference they felt was the Pacista lacking Kuma's devil fruit. Still like I said above, if Kuma has his mental faculty then it would be an uncertain bout (meaning if he does not have his mental faculty and is not upgraded then Luffy beats him without much trouble) Now in case of Law, yes we do not know what his abilities are but he was not that tough pre-time-skip as he and his whole crew and also the entire Kid Pirates crew struggled against a single Pacifista. Considering that to be his base level, it could be said that he was not more powerful than Luffy at that point of time. And since Luffy spent the whole time training while Law had done other stuff I assume that Luffy has grown more in power than him (Law) during the time-skip and therefore can beat him. Magellan is definitely above regular Vice Admiral level and he never was even close to be defeated by Luffy, hell Luffy would not even survive him if not for Ivankov. You are right, Magellan is a Paramecia devil fruit user but you are wrong about one thing, haki does not have any extra advantage over Logia, haki merely allows a person to get touch the physical body of an opponent regardless of what form the opponent might be in. As Logia users are normally impossible to touch, people uses haki to touch them, that does not mean that haki would have a disadvantage against paramecia. Just like Magellan can use a poison armor, Akainu can also use a Magma armor if he wants to, it won't matter if the one who attacks has haki or not, he would have to tear through it (the armour). Magellan is indeed a viscous opponent, if he activates the Venom Demon then I think he can own Luffy. Unless Luffy develops some ranged attack, he can probably never defeat Magellan in an one on one fight without sacrificing himself. Now with the Admirals' issue, I think you are missing something, remember when Luffy first time punched Aokiji? His hand froze. Touching Aokiji is just as (maybe even more) lethal than touching Akainu. A melee fighter would get frozen the moment Aokiji would touch him (or he would touch Aokiji). Also solid/liquid/gas/abstract does not matter. How? Well the thing is, when one uses busoshoku haki then they can touch the actual body of the person they wants to, regardless of what ability the person has, so it won't effect depending what the "ability state" of the the opponent is, rather the actual physical toughness would come to play. Aside from that, regardless of being solid/liquid/gas/abstract (except for Blackbeard's case) when a Logia user is using his ability, it does not matter whether his body is shattered or broken into pieces, he can easily reform (unless elemental weakness is exploited or haki is used). Luffy and Robin did shatter Aokiji into pieces but he reformed easily enough (he also reformed against Whitebeard proving that he has at least some haki resistance), so whether Luffy can break ice easily or not won't be a factor if he fights Aokiji - if haki is used then it's up to how tough Aokiji's actual body is and how strong his (Aokiji's) haki is compared to the attacker (Luffy in this case)- if not (I mean no haki usage) then say goodbye! You said that magma and ice balances each other, well if that would have been the case then the immense ice berg that Jozu threw would not have vaporized in an instant upon contact with Akainu's Dai Funka (which was relatively smaller in comparison). Ice could possibly cool down the magma but then a huge excess in concentration would be required. Also in case of Ace's fire, we have seen in Marineford that they both canceled each other so it would not be a huge disadvantage for Aokiji. If they actually fought then Ace would have lost because Aokiji has haki, is physically more powerful (assuming) and much more experienced. Also I think Kizaru is actually the weakest of the Admirals. Well this is a bit of speculation but I would try to back it up. We saw Aokiji and Akainu as Vice Admiral's during the Ohara incident which was 22 years ago where as Kizaru was seen as a Vice Admiral 12 years ago in Jinbe's flashback (when Kizaru beat Arlong). I am not saying that it proves but I think it suggests that those two, (Aokiji and Akainu) were promoted before Kizaru was. Which could be further deducted from the fact that Kizaru was never considered or mentioned as a potential candidate to become the successor of the Fleet Admiral, perhaps because he was the most junior of the three? Anyways, speculation aside, let's get down to fact. Kizaru's fruit, like you said is not volatile to touch and has to be concentrated into lasers to actually use for offense. However the other two (Akainu and Aokiji) has fruits which are volatile to touch, one would freeze you and other would burn you. Also, as we have seen Vice Admirals to use Soru, it is just normal for the Admirals to know it too and that implies that all three of them are pretty fast. Their possession of busoshoku haki and their durability is already proven. So from this we can say that Aokiji and Akainu both has an advantage over Kizaru from the volatility of their respective element. Then comes the second thing, like you said, Kizaru needs to focus to create his attacks (at least most of them) and we have seen that charging a beam takes some time (remember when he was going to finish Zoro off?). Aokiji also needs to form his ice stuff, whereas Akainu can just though his lava and it's good enough to roast the enemy. As for Kizaru's speed advantage, he is undoubtedly having a boost there but the thing is, he is as fast as light only when he is using his ability, for which to activate, he has to rely on his reflex. So technically if one can beat his reflex speed the he can nullify Kizaru's speed advantage. Now look at the three Admirals. Akainu: Smart, efficient, strategic, ruthless but hot headed. Aokiji: Smart, efficient, calm. compassionate but lazy. Kizaru: Troll, unmindful, disoriented and clueless! From this, it seems that the other two has a high chance to out smart him, beat his reflexes, nullify his speed advantage and kick his ass in a real battle. Well that is what I concluded. If you think I am wrong, explain your saying. 04:15, March 14, 2012 (UTC) Some of you guys are severly underestimating the straw hats. Luffy is yet to break a sweat against anyone, and he seems to be in complete control of all 3 haki and Rayleigh commented that luffy was now a man worthy of roger's straw hat. Zoro and sanji even seem to be able to use at least the awareness haki. As far as speed Luffy could probably keep up with kizaru to some extent, since they displayed zoro as being faster than a fishman in water. That said Luffy may be ready to face the the lesser admirals, two had to be replaced and im sure zoro and sanji end up fighting those guys. The admirals seem to be a fight for the end of the series though. Something to do with the revolutionaries going to war most likely for everyone to be gathered. Smoker would not be able to fight Luffy. Now that Luffy can hit smoker he would surely win. I believe this because smoker got shit kicked by law and he is not set up to be an enemy of the straw hats anyway. Does anyone really think that tashigi will put up a fight for zoro's swords? (they will probably have some funny interaction on punk hazard though) and who else is with smoker to put up any resistance. Luffy will talk to law and help smoker get back to his body along with the straw hats and then smoker will say crap about catching them while thinking they are good people. They always stress that smoker "follows his own justice" and he will side with luffy at the series climax. April 22, 2012 Smoker; at present yes, based on his fight with Law. May well be close though Admirals: if they're anything like the pre-timeskip ones, not yet. Luffy will be able to eventually, but he's not at his best yet.13th madman 14:08, April 22, 2012 (UTC) If Luffy was near an Admiral in strength then he would have KO Hody in one hit (or two at max). Also only having all sorts of haki is not enough to be that powerful. Remember, Luffy himself remarked that his haki was not strong enough yet (when Hody bit on his shoulder) and Oda said in SBS that if it was Shanks in case of Luffy in FI then he would have knocked out all 100000 with haoshoku haki alone while Luffy managed to take down only 50000, meaning he is no where near a master haki user yet. The Admirals have in the past fought toe to toe with Whitebeard so I don't think Luffy in his present state would manage to even put up a decent fight. Also don't count Smoker out already. Yes he lost to Law but then again Law's ability is too unique and that allowed him to get past Smoker's defenses and take his heart. Until that point, it was Smoker who managed to land blows, not Law. As Smoker knows how Luffy's ability works from first hand experience he can not be taken out by Luffy as easily he was by Law, therefore, it will be a tough fight in my opinion (Luffy would probably win). 21:04, May 22, 2012 (UTC) Well in my opinion Luffy is on pair no with the Admirals,because if you look better there are the Old geezers from the WG who can be much stronger than the Admirals.So yes.Luffy can beat the Admirals and his next battles will be with the Leaders of the World Goverment. 20:21, May 25, 2012 (UTC)Lux~ Just because someone else can be stronger, does not mean Luffy is stronger. 20:26, May 25, 2012 (UTC) In the recent manga, Luffy had some fun toying with Smoker. He could beat Smoker if he really wanted to. I would not be surprised if Luffy asks Law to give Smoker his body back soon so it will be a more challenging fight.